mmm...profound, Paul. Although, I might contest that he's actually the opposite...
Lauren- That's a really concise and genuine way of putting it. I like that!
Allison- That's what I think of when talking about progress in the abstract. What I mean is, outside of any context, I think progress is pretty much what you said, but is totally dependent on that assumed goal.
I would have loved to see this art exhibit at the Guggenheim (which ended in March) because I think it would have been very evocative, especially being led through by people moving upward through the life-course and to hear what people's responses were (especially because new york tourists come in all kinds).
It seems like so many problems in the world throughout history have ties to conflicting, misunderstood, or twisted conceptions of progress, specifically that which we are progressing toward.
Who gets to define progress? I'm sure most of us agree on that Answer...but what about the rest of the world?
but isn't that the very core of the world's problems? if we all agreed He is the Answer then the Messiah would come. even then we would have to make progress in the redemption of the physical world. which is why i find it sad that many christian companies use styrofoam and adopt other practices that actually hurt G-d's world.
i would say progress is learning and doing, in either order.
What do you mean that the Messiah will come when the whole world agrees that He is the answer? I mean, doesn't scripture indicate that people won't agree, that there will be wars against G-d? I guess I don't quite understand Biblical eschatology...
...and, in a less spiritual sense (maybe) I had the thought yesterday that we are better able to progress these days because of technological advances and the easier exchange of information, quick communication and transportation. But, then I argued with myself, "But what kind of progress? I mean, technology often leads to what many would consider the opposite of progress." Such as, what Leah said, use of styrofoam or industrialized agriculture which takes most of humanity further and further from the land which our ancestors knew so much better. Yet, I don't know if I could honestly say I want to go back to the days where I didn't have the technologies we have now available to me.
So my answer before I read everyone's comments or listened to the clip was that progress is continually decreasing the time it takes you to get back on track - back to G-d - after you sin.
But in response to some of the other questions, it seems like progress is a slippery thing to define. Ideally progress at a macro-level would mean more people coming to know Him, because the more people who know Him the more people will be acting like Him. But we tend to act more like our theology than like Him, if you can see the distinction, which is basically what you and Leah have already pointed out. Some people have very high personal moral standards, but they couldn't care less about restoring the earth. Some people care heaps about the earth and the poor, but their personal morality is in shambles. As the two sides polarize and move away from each other, I don't know that you can argue any progress has been made, since the L-rd values both sides.
I get my idea of progress from Chesterton who says that the word in itself is a misnomer. It implies traveling down a road, but you could be on completely the wrong road in the first place. A better concept is reform, because it implies an original shape that things were meant to be in. It implies a standard to measure against, and you must keep re-forming until you get back to what was intended.
first, i would like to say this conversation is very 'progressive' and hip and cooli-o :)
secondly, i appreciate the concept of the exhibit. giving conversation the status of a fine work of art. i believe in a world where more and more communication takes place with out the actual person in front of you that face to face communication is progress!!
thirdly, what's technologies obsession with getting smaller? why do phones, mp3s and everything seem to think that smaller is progress?
To wrap it up: 1. saying 'cooli-o' is not cool 2. face to face communication is progress in an increasingly impersonal world. 3. if your a microchip progress is becoming smaller.
11 comments:
A professional gressler - like Hulk Hogan
saying yes to God daily
taking steps (toward the fulfillment of a goal)
mmm...profound, Paul. Although, I might contest that he's actually the opposite...
Lauren- That's a really concise and genuine way of putting it. I like that!
Allison- That's what I think of when talking about progress in the abstract. What I mean is, outside of any context, I think progress is pretty much what you said, but is totally dependent on that assumed goal.
I would have loved to see this art exhibit at the Guggenheim (which ended in March) because I think it would have been very evocative, especially being led through by people moving upward through the life-course and to hear what people's responses were (especially because new york tourists come in all kinds).
It seems like so many problems in the world throughout history have ties to conflicting, misunderstood, or twisted conceptions of progress, specifically that which we are progressing toward.
Who gets to define progress? I'm sure most of us agree on that Answer...but what about the rest of the world?
but isn't that the very core of the world's problems? if we all agreed He is the Answer then the Messiah would come. even then we would have to make progress in the redemption of the physical world. which is why i find it sad that many christian companies use styrofoam and adopt other practices that actually hurt G-d's world.
i would say progress is learning and doing, in either order.
also, what is a "gressler"?
What do you mean that the Messiah will come when the whole world agrees that He is the answer? I mean, doesn't scripture indicate that people won't agree, that there will be wars against G-d? I guess I don't quite understand Biblical eschatology...
I can't answer that last question. :)
...and, in a less spiritual sense (maybe) I had the thought yesterday that we are better able to progress these days because of technological advances and the easier exchange of information, quick communication and transportation. But, then I argued with myself, "But what kind of progress? I mean, technology often leads to what many would consider the opposite of progress." Such as, what Leah said, use of styrofoam or industrialized agriculture which takes most of humanity further and further from the land which our ancestors knew so much better. Yet, I don't know if I could honestly say I want to go back to the days where I didn't have the technologies we have now available to me.
Does any of that make sense?
So my answer before I read everyone's comments or listened to the clip was that progress is continually decreasing the time it takes you to get back on track - back to G-d - after you sin.
But in response to some of the other questions, it seems like progress is a slippery thing to define. Ideally progress at a macro-level would mean more people coming to know Him, because the more people who know Him the more people will be acting like Him. But we tend to act more like our theology than like Him, if you can see the distinction, which is basically what you and Leah have already pointed out. Some people have very high personal moral standards, but they couldn't care less about restoring the earth. Some people care heaps about the earth and the poor, but their personal morality is in shambles. As the two sides polarize and move away from each other, I don't know that you can argue any progress has been made, since the L-rd values both sides.
I get my idea of progress from Chesterton who says that the word in itself is a misnomer. It implies traveling down a road, but you could be on completely the wrong road in the first place. A better concept is reform, because it implies an original shape that things were meant to be in. It implies a standard to measure against, and you must keep re-forming until you get back to what was intended.
first, i would like to say this conversation is very 'progressive' and hip and cooli-o :)
secondly, i appreciate the concept of the exhibit. giving conversation the status of a fine work of art. i believe in a world where more and more communication takes place with out the actual person in front of you that face to face communication is progress!!
thirdly, what's technologies obsession with getting smaller? why do phones, mp3s and everything seem to think that smaller is progress?
To wrap it up:
1. saying 'cooli-o' is not cool
2. face to face communication is progress in an increasingly impersonal world.
3. if your a microchip progress is becoming smaller.
4thly, i think i stumbled onto something here, that everyone may have already gotten...
What you view as progress depends on what you are and the values you hold. so, to answer this question is quite revealing...
great conversation starter. i think this page is proof of that!
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